The Advanced Financial Planner - Season 1 | Episode 4: David Miller Interviews David Christianson

On today’s episode, we will be interviewing David Christianson, from Christianson Wealth Advisors - National Bank Financial Wealth Management, on his history in the financial planning industry, his client-centered approach, and his advice for those new to the profession.  

In this interview, David Christianson discusses his new book: Managing The Bull. It can be purchased at Knowledge Bureau, www.knowledgebureau.com

Transcript

David Miller  0:02  

all right, I have with me David Christianson with National Bank. He is a public speaker, financial planner, educator, previous iafp symposium MC, Free Press, personal finance columnist, founding board member with the IAFP. And he was the lead editor for the standards and ethics that we all follow. David, thank you very much for doing this. Welcome.

David Christianson  0:28  

Thanks. Good to be here.

David Miller  0:29  

Now, would you just start off by telling me a little bit about your history, how and why did you decide to become a financial planner?

David Christianson  0:37  

Well, it was kind of a circuitous route, graduated from high school and was trying to make it with a rock band. And unfortunately, we broke up. So I needed a job that year, and I ended up working for a Member of Parliament, writing speeches and newsletters for a year.

David Miller  0:55  

We have any names there, or he his

Unknown Speaker  0:57  

name was Dan McKenzie, and the next election, he had the largest plurality of any, any winner in Canada, right. So he was the most successful so I kept his foot out of his mouth for a whole year, which was quite a challenge. And, but I realized partway through that year that I didn't want to be a professional bs'er my whole life. So I went back to university and when I took my psychology, okay, and thought I wanted to be a psycho therapist, moved to Los Angeles to pursue those studies and, and, and do all of that training, but found I was better at business and selling things. So when my former girlfriend who'd become then my current girlfriend convinced me to move back to Winnipeg, I needed a job and was recruited by a friend to into the life insurance business, okay. And I found a lot that I liked about that. But what I liked most about it was the financial planning side of it, helping people vision their futures. And then, so I became quite obsessed with learning the skills and developing the experience to help people set specific goals and reach them. So I think that the psychology and my my affinity for numbers and rules and regulations all came together. And that seemed to be the ideal thing. So after two years in the life insurance business, I switched, I moved to a different part of the industry, you might say where I could practice as a financial planner, became a Chartered Financial Planner originally and then an R.F.P. in 1988. Right, which makes me sound pretty old, I guess.

David Miller  2:42  

Well, the rock band part makes you sound way younger. So it's a it all evens out?

David Christianson  2:46  

Well, good. And I, I played a gig just last week. So it still goes on.

David Miller  2:50  

What instrument do you play?

David Christianson  2:52  

I play bass guitar. I'm not smart enough to be a guitar player.

David Miller  2:56  

I can't I tried to play a little guitar, but the only audience I have is my daughter. So

David Christianson  3:01  

she's probably very appreciative. 

David Miller  3:03  

She loves me. 

Unknown Speaker  3:06  

That's convenient. Yeah, that's definitely the preferable way.

David Miller  3:12  

And so the therapy bit part of it really interests me because often as a financial planner, I find that I am a client's therapist, or I'm just the sounding board for all their worries. Is that the parallel that you found?

David Christianson  3:27  

Yes. You know, we are financial counselors. In many ways. People's decisions about money are quite often shaped by their past and their upbringing. And if we can just help, and by listening and asking good questions, you know, we can help people figure out why they're making the decisions they're making. And but you know, what I really see as our role as financial planners is helping clients figure out what it is they really want in their lives. That's the counseling side of it, I think, and then developing a financial plan to help them reach those goals and helping them prioritize them because most people can't do absolutely everything they want to do.

David Miller  4:13  

Yeah, I see a lot of it in my own practice where people just don't know what to do with their time. It's not about the money aspect money's okay. But what on earth are they going to do once they stop working? And that's where figuring out what their purpose is, is that something that you're finding as well with your clients?

David Christianson  4:32  

Absolutely, absolutely. We we call our process the goal achiever process. And so it, it parallels very well the six step financial planning process of the IAFP. And then step one is helping to define where it is you want to go. And then, you know, the technician part of it is steps two and three. Which is really assessing where Somebody is today. And that means evaluating. How are the assets situated? How will they be building in the future? Will incomes be roughly equal so that a couple can stay in the same tax bracket. And then determining what rate of return is needed to reach those goals and you know, then helping to develop a proper investment plan. And everything else that goes with that, identifying risk management requirements, and, and all of that, so, yeah, but it all starts with helping clients figure out what's most important to them, what what's nearest and dearest to their hearts. 

David Miller  5:42  

Yeah, and we were talking a little bit about your history there. You said in insurance industry. After the BSE you got out of that into the insurance industry, I've found that financial planning was the route you want to take. So after you were working for an insurance company, where did you land

David Christianson  6:01  

we've, I formed with some other people who were very into financial planning. And we formed our own broker dealership, which ended up becoming licensed for well, securities, new issues, real estate, mutual funds, all of that. But we did, we centered it around financial planning. And luckily, one of my partners was a chartered accountant who was also a computer science graduate, the man with two brains, we called him and he developed the earliest version of really effective financial planning software that I've seen. And it's funny back at the same time, I was part of a feasibility study that ended up resulting in NaviPlan being developed, which is of course, another Winnipeg invention. So those things helped me a lot in build toward a financial planning practice. But it was built around products initially. And then we helped a guy get into the business. And by referring $10 million, so he could quit his day job. And he ended up being the founder of Assante. And so we were in the ground floor of that. But my choice at that point was then to go into fee for service planning, because it was the financial planning part of it. And the trust that people put in me, that really motivated me. And by going to fee for service planning, I divorced myself from the delivery of product and suddenly developed quite an amazing clientele. Because it turned out there were a lot of accountants and lawyers in town looking to refer their clients to somebody they trusted, who had no affiliation with product. And there were a lot of people out there willing to pay for advice, because that gave them the assurance that it was truly independent, and objective. And, you know, it's interesting as back then, you know, stockbrokers were stockbrokers. They weren't doing financial planning like they are today. Insurance people were much more pure insurance people not doing financial planning, as many of them do today.

David Miller  8:24  

They're selling stocks or selling insurance products. Nobody was just not selling anything.

David Christianson  8:29  

Yeah, there was a niche there for somebody who was just doing financial planning. And, you know, ironically, first, we evolved then back to people saying, well, you're doing this great job for us overall in strategy and helping us with implementation. Could you supervise our investment people, so we, I became licensed as a portfolio manager, and we started, you know, essentially managing everybody's portfolios, but as a third party, or, you know, remotely on a fee for service basis, and then that led me to evaluating things. I was with Macdonald, Shymko and Company, and they were fabulous mentors in the fee for service planning. And but, you know, my practice developed into people saying, We want you to manage everything for us. And that became the fee per service hourly rate became evolved into percentage of assets. And so we, you know, again, we looked after everything, but we weren't the holder of the assets. We weren't the custodian, and in 20 ... so, I sold that practice to Wellington West, which was an investment firm, but we stayed totally separate as a separate Corporation still doing fee for service planning for about five years. And that worked very well. You know, we had additional resources But we were still completely independent and objective. And then all of us at Wellington sold a company to National Bank financial in 2012. Sorry, 2010. And then in 2012, I, with the help of my current partner in the business, did an evaluation and we found we could save our clients ... The figure was about $550,000 a year in fees, if we, if we, you know, sort of gave up the fee for service dream and became the dealer as well. And he's, yeah, yeah, it really was. Because clients were paying discounted fees to investment people. And we'd arranged very good discounts for them and negotiated those. But they were also paying us. And if we combine those two, we could drop the total fee substantially by about a third.

David Miller  10:58  

Yeah, and this is super rare in the industry, right? There's not too many. My company does this. That's why I can say it's rare. portfolio management and the fee only planning where we don't sell anything. The independence, it's incredibly rare. So good on you guys.

David Christianson  11:15  

Yeah. So you know, the risk there was that our clients had most of those clients had hired us because we were fee for service and independent, would they make the transition with us, and so our margins were also going to improve. So there was a bit of self serving involved in this, but the risk was would those clients come and at the time, we were looking after about $100 million. And by the time our transition was finished, six months later, we were managing $110 million. So it worked out fairly well, you might say. And now, last month, we were at $260 million under management. 

David Miller  11:59  

That's great David.

David Christianson  11:59  

Yeah, so it worked out very well. And, you know, we've got the margins that we can that in the volumes now that allow us to do really good service for clients. And I've been able to expand the team by two people. So we now have a total of six people looking after these folks. And we do full financial plans for all of them, of course, to get started. And we have a very detailed annual update with each client where we meet with them and go over, you know, the entire financial planning process start to finish, although it's sort of compressed because we have their information. But it's the financial, it's the annual meeting and annual update, an annual renewal of the financial plan. It's the process that I learned at Macdonald, Shymko. So we're still doing the same thing.

David Miller  12:52  

And David, what's now that you have a team of six, and you've built up this $240 million business? What is your favorite part? What's your favorite thing to do in a day? What's the best thing that you can do right now?

David Christianson  13:06  

Well, actually, mentoring the team has, you know, I'm pretty old. You know, when I started in the business in the 1940s, it was not quite that old. But you know, I've got some people I'm really lucky. I've got five people with me who are all fabulous self starters, they're really motivated. And they they really love what we do, you know, we've self selected each other because, you know, we all put the clients first we really care about the clients. And, you know, I know everybody says that we these people genuinely do in fact, I have to remind them sometimes that hey, this is a business you know, you want to help everybody you meet but you know, we have to be a little bit discriminating. So but mentoring the team and you know, when we come together and you know, develop new processes and make things run more efficiently and get it do a better job of everybody doing what they're really good at. That's that's what gives me most of my jollies. But also counseling people like that. In three hours, I've got a call with a client whose daughter in law has mental health issues. And you know, it's not a financial issue. But it's something that I can be at least a sounding board. I'm not going to be giving advice that's way outside my area of expertise, but, you know, I'm going to help her try and find some resources. So you know, that kind of thing where people have genuine problems in their lives, where we can help them. You know, just, you know, 35 years in the business, I've met lots of people, I've listened to a lot of issues. I've helped solve a lot of problems. And so you know, I'm the old guy counselor who kind of can help things out?

David Miller  15:02  

Yeah, you're going back to the therapist?

David Christianson  15:05  

A little bit. Yeah. And again, I'm not trying to mow anybody else's grass, you know, but when clients have a chance to talk, they get a chance to figure out what it is that really either bothering them or what, what's their real objective, and you know, what's really going on with them. It just helps them clarify their own thinking.

David Miller  15:29  

And to be fair, David, I started this podcast thinking I would only be interviewing gray hairs. And I'm looking at you, nobody can see this, but I don't see maybe a little bit of gray on the sides, little around

David Christianson  15:42  

the temple, started to die my temple. So I look distinguished.

David Miller  15:49  

Maybe just switch gears a little bit about bit here and just tell me, the biggest thing that you think helped you along your career to become successful? can be a mentor, this could be the way you approach things. This could be I believe this wide open?

David Christianson  16:05  

Yeah. Well, I think the innate things are my patience and ability to listen. I think those are in the end. You know, they didn't mean I was an overnight success, overnight sensation, like some of the salespeople I knew. But in the long run, it's allowed me to develop much deeper relationships with clients. So you know, I think that's maybe the biggest thing, but the mentoring I had from Doug Macdonald, and Larry Jacobson, at Macdonald, Shymko and Company were huge in helping me become a real financial planner. And so those things were very important. And then being becoming a fee for service planner in a relatively small market. I'm in Winnipeg, and then being invited, first to be a broadcaster. So I had a weekly radio show. And then to be a weekly journalist, writing a column, which started something like 26 years ago, that was huge for business. And not because I said, things, you know, not because I actively generated business, because the editors would never allow that. Right. But when people called up and said, You know, I've been reading your column for two years, I like the way you think, I want to hire you, you know, they, they felt they knew me. And I had always been clear and candid in those columns about, you know, this is an opinion that this is my opinion, this is how I feel about things. So that was a probably a huge, huge factor as well.

David Miller  17:49  

Yeah, just not an overnight success, as you said, maybe a year to two years after they start reading something, or listening to you. That's when there's an epiphany. And they think, wait a minute. This makes sense.

David Christianson  18:03  

Yeah. And it's funny. About five years ago, a woman called me up and said, are you still doing what you used to do? And I said, Yeah. And she said, Well, my husband died about a year ago. And I realized, I don't know what I'm doing. And I need somebody I trust. And I laugh because that was the longest sales cycle ever. I had worked with her on a chamber of commerce committee 30 years previously. So it's 30 year sales cycle. So that's where you know, when I talk about patients, I guess I'm talking about things like that as well.

David Miller  18:40  

There's just nobody overseeing you saying, why isn't this lady in yet? Yeah. Oh, she will be Just you wait.

David Christianson  18:49  

Yeah, and I, you know, I and I laugh about it, calling it a sales cycle, because I'd never pitched her was just, you know, she remembered me remembered I did this and her husband, an accountant that taking care of things beautifully over the years, and they were very well to do but she realized she was out of her league and not interested in that stuff, either. So yeah. As we used to say, in the hockey business, stick around long enough, and somebody will give you a job. I was partners with a fellow for seven or eight years advising NHL players and learn lots of stories there.

David Miller  19:29  

You'd want to get into that, or do you want to just No,

David Christianson  19:32  

no, no, that those are Yeah. Asked me at his side. Sometimes. Lots of lots and lots of funny stories, but it's kind of a crazy business.

David Miller  19:41  

Yeah. So you you're a writer of books. You're not about to write a book about NHL players?

David Christianson  19:48  

No, there are some mentions of them in the book that I've just published and and produced Managing The Bull. And that refers it's kind of a double entendre, but it doesn't really work. Refer to the bull market. It refers to the BS that's that surrounds us in the industry. The broader industry, and I don't mean the profession of financial planning, but the investment industry, the insurance industry, and especially the financial media, there's a lot of bull being propagated, right and left. So I was motivated to write a book that I thought would help people focus on what's most important to them, and filter out a lot of that noise. So that's Managing The Bull. And, you know, the, I've been, I'm really pleased at the way the book has turned out. And again, it helps people focus on setting their own goals, setting their own agenda, deciding what it is, that's important to them, and not believing everything they read, in spite of the fact that they just read in my book. But, you know, it's all about asking yourself what's most important, and then providing in the second part of the book, providing the tools to get there.

David Miller  21:07  

Yeah,and writing a book is a not a small feat. Any advice for somebody else trying to dive into that? How did you get the motivation that that find the time the will the subject matter? You could write extensively on obviously, to be

David Christianson  21:26  

The advice is think, again? No, it's actually you know, it's, it's a good thing to do. For a variety of reasons, it's good for business, because hopefully, you you've identified your philosophies and put them put them down formally in writing. And you can provide that to prospects and, and clients, you know, help them define what it is they like about you. And so they can tell other people about you. And you know, where they think it's going to be a good fit. It's a huge ambition. You know, it's one of those silly things that I wanted to do. Kind of like running marathons. You know, I did that for a while, right. But in this case, I have Evelyn Jacks, the head of the Knowledge Bureau to thank because she hounded me until I, I got one done. And also, some people who were helping me with an early blog, and this is that back in 2012, I put together a persona for it. And it was a line drawing of a bull. and Managing The Bulls, what we're calling the blog at the time. And when I saw the mock up of the cover, I knew what the book had to say. And that got me started. And then I fooled myself into thinking that 20 odd years of newspaper columns could be condensed into a book, right? That's, that's how I started. You know, I organized, what should the, you know, what should ... How should the flow go, and then I found old newspaper columns that I'd written, that helped fill in those gaps, thinking, okay, all this will take is a bit of editing. Well, it took a lot more than that, I had to write a lot of gaps, fill in a lot of gaps rewrite a lot of those of those columns. But it ends up that the book is very people tell me it's very effective, very easy to read, because each chapter is sort of three to five pages at the most. And they they're one shot snippets. So you know, if you read a chapter at a time, often three pages, you you get the message from that one. And

David Miller  23:41  

David, do you consider yourself a storyteller then? Or is it a prefer or you provide information?

David Christianson  23:47  

I provide information, it's not a man. an allegory, you know, it's it's not the Wealthy Barber, that kind of approach. It's just, you know, me talking to people in a conversational way. It's easy to read. It's in snippets. And a lot of people have told me that it's really changed the way they approach all of this. And this helped them achieve their goals. So that's made me very satisfied. The original was in 2012, published then, and then I totally rewrote it this year, which was a pretty big undertaking as well, not quite as much as the first time. But in 2012, I was completely converting my business going from being registered with the securities commissions, to being registered with IIROC, passing all the exams that were required to do that. I was doing all that while I was writing the book and changing companies. So yeah, that was kind of a crazy, crazy, crazy summer

David Miller  24:54  

And this during COVID so maybe that helped along or was it

David Christianson  24:58  

Well, no, that that's that was all back In 2012

David Miller  25:01  

Oh, sorry, I thought this was what the new book you were doing every single previous book, you had no registration deal with your company a switch for you. Gotcha.

David Christianson  25:11  

Yeah, no, this this time, it was a little bit more reasonable and reason than and, you know, still a big a lot of weekends spent rewriting because I've read and rewrote every single line of the book. So it's it's definitely up to date and refreshed. But what granter it was wonderful. When I started to read it, I was afraid I was gonna be cringing thinking, Oh, my gosh, this is, you know, and when, whenever, you know, we're our own worst critics. And I was very thrilled and pleasantly surprised that, as I was writing, reading it, I was thinking, Hmm, I wish I could write this well now. You know, so I was very proud of it. And happy to keep the basic structure and republish it this year. And of course, it's now a Canadian bestseller with this second, with this second printing, we've sold enough that it qualifies as a Canadian bestseller.

David Miller  26:12  

Well, congratulations, Dave. That's a huge undertaking, I hope all the best continued success for the book. And where can people buy it? Or did they just reach out to you and you send it,

David Christianson  26:26  

They can go to the Knowledge Bureau, www.knowledgebureau.com, under news books, and it'll be the that should be the lead there. And they can order and for advisors, we're offering a 50% discount on orders of 10 or more. Because the book for financial advisors or financial planners of any kind, the book is the best training course for clients. If clients read even the first 33 pages of this book, they become much better clients, Easier, they're focused on what's important to them, not on what they read in the headlines yesterday, or trying to predict what's going to happen in the markets next month. It really is. You know, I've heard that from a lot of advisors. years ago, George George Hartmann wrote a review of the book and, you know, sort of said the same thing that this is the perfect User's Manual for clients, you know, in. So yeah, I think in that's why we, you know, we've discounted it so much for advisors, if they want to distribute it out to their clients, it's going to make their lives easier.

David Miller  27:44  

That's great, Dave. Yeah, I'm gonna order some so great sales job right there. I just got convinced. I'm gonna switch gears again. You said you're a founding board member of the IAFP. Why was that important? And why is it still important for you to be active today?

David Christianson  27:59  

Yeah, I was very active with the Canadian Association of Financial Planners. And after I left the board there, the people who'd come in were largely from the insurance industry, at the time, at least enough of them to become convinced that if they merged with the life insurance trade association, and formed Advocis, they'd have a much bigger, better lobbying group. And, you know, I believe they were right. But there were a number of us from the CAFP, who, you know, I guess would call, I'd call us purist financial planners. And we didn't want to be a trade organization. We wanted to be a professional organization with the trappings of profession, like accounting or law. And we were willing to do the things required to, to have that. In other words, you know, we were willing to raise the qualifications and the requirements for ownerment. So at the last CAFP conference in Edmonton say 2003 2004 we, you know, a number of us said, Okay, well, you know, we need a separate I don't want to say elite, but organization focused on financial planning. And that's when the the IAFP was formed.

David Miller  29:39  

Yeah, and it's still, to this day, at least, maybe to the public very confusing on who to trust, who's a financial planner is not regulated in any province, but Ontario, for example. Anybody can call themselves a financial advisor and I'm alluding to Maybe this is why it's still important for you to be part of the IAFP today.

David Christianson  30:05  

Yeah, absolutely. You know, there does need to be an organization committed to the ideals of professional financial planning.  And the iafp, is it and in Quebec, of course, does also regulate financial planning. And you're right, Ontario was almost there. And we've been pushing for that only since 1986. Like actively lobbying government after government to have that happen. But the IAFP has punched way above its weight in raising the standards. And back, when we formed the IAFP, the standards to be a CFP, were much lower, you didn't have to be a practicing financial planner, you know, if you pass the exams, you could be a taxi driver, no offense to taxi drivers. But, you know, though most of them, they may have opinions, but they're not full time financial planners. And the IAFP insisted on that, and a whole bunch of other you know, three years education, experience, ethics, and one other that escapes me, but we've pushed the the CFP organization to raise its standards over the years. And because it's much bit much bigger in numbers, that is has a more significant impact on the consumers across Canada. But you know, the IAFP is behind that. And I think the IAFP deserves full credit for pushing the standards higher and forcing other organizations to raise them, including Advocis, and, and everyone else is involved with people who do financial planning, as well as product delivery.

David Miller  31:58  

Yeah, that's great, David, and you guys listening to this podcast and have heard it first from David, David's mouth himself. And from you, David, why should somebody join the IAFP, or maybe some advice for financial planners coming up?

David Christianson  32:13  

Yeah. As a financial planner, or financial advisor, joining the IAFP puts you with a smaller, more refined group of people who are committed to financial planning. And that that's what they do on a regular and continuous basis. So it sets you apart that way from those 16 or 17,000, CFPs in the country. So it's a way to distinguish yourself in the business number one, and number two, it does force you to raise your standards. So, you know, I can't cast aspersions in any way in the CFP right now, it's virtually caught up in terms of their requirements and the training and, and, you know, again, because it's such a large organization, they can have additional resources and things. But the IAFP, being a smaller group, helps people set people aside. So as somebody coming into the business, so advice in several ways, one with regard to those organizations, get involved with one or both, get the training, but also see if you can find some good mentors to help you along. Because that's critically important, I think in terms of pointing in the right direction, focusing on the right things, you know, there's so much to learn so much to do that, helping you define what's important to you, and what area of the business you want to be involved in. And heading down that direction is pretty important. Also, in terms of developing a business, it's hard to break into, you know, somebody in their 20s, six months into their training, pretty hard to develop a clientele. And working with someone else with an established business is I think, the right way to get started and get a couple of years of experience at least. And then if you want to break out on your own, you've got a resume to show people.

David Miller  34:22  

Yeah, you again, you have a team of six. We just hired an intern from Mount Royal University. But anybody who's looking for a mentor, I'm actively telling people to reach out. Because if they don't know where to fall, they may fall with who knows a bank or an insurance company and who knows where that could lead. Right? I worked for a bank company you worked for an insurance company and we've managed to get

David Christianson  34:51  

We turned out okay. 

David Miller  34:52  

Turned out.

David Christianson  34:54  

Yeah, you know, as we like to say, there's nothing wrong with that. And in fact, like, you know, the banks and Investors Group, which is really developed over the last few years, but, but the banks and you know, all of those big organizations have organized training, and they have good quality training, and they are aspiring to train financial planners. So, you know, it's not like when we started or when I started 20 30 years ago, when it was the training was here's, I was gonna say, here's how to turn on your computer, but it didn't even have him back then. You know, it anyway, it's just very different by and, and the standards are higher across the board, you know, so we should give credit to, to the banks, insurance companies, anybody who's bringing people into the business out of university or community college, or wherever they have that training, and, you know, they're, yeah, they're involved with product, and often this propriety product, and all of that sort of thing. But nevertheless, the first couple of years, when you need that training, it's, it's important to, to, you know, to get it obviously, and those organizations are now providing it in a much higher quality way. That's what I'm trying to say.

David Miller  36:15  

Get your education, get your experience up. But recognize that there are other options.

David Christianson  36:21  

Yeah, absolutely. And look for what's really going to motivate you turn your crank and you know, make you happy in the business so that you can stay in a long time and never work a day in your life, as they say,

David Miller  36:37  

absolutely. And then never retire is what I keep on hearing. Cuz we can't help it. People always need help, and they always reach out. It's a your plans for the future?

David Christianson  36:51  

Yeah, the, my two young partners in the business will be assuming ownership of the business over the next couple of years, I will continue to serve as mentor and counselor for them. But hopefully, more in the role of a consultant rather than doing the day to day. And I'm not very good at the day to day anymore. You know, as technology evolves, you know, I was an early adopter of many, many technologies over the last three decades. And but the, you know, the, anyway, I still do love keeping up with it all. But the pace of changes is going on. So you know, my unique ability is to listen to people, help them figure out what it is that it's most important to them, and explaining complex processes and procedures and complex issues to people in a way they can understand without being condescending. This is what I've been told is my unique ability over the years, so I'm going to continue to focus on that.

David Miller  38:02  

That's great, David. Well, thank you very much for joining me today. you've provided some great insight, great information that I hope a lot of people take to heart So David, if anyone wants to reach out to you what's the best way to do it?

David Christianson  38:15  

Well, probably by email it's David.christiansen@nbc.ca like National Broadcasting corporation.ca

David Miller  38:28  

that's what exactly it is.

David Christianson  38:30  

I find that's the best acronym for people to understand NBC.

David Miller  38:34  

Perfect and to get your book you said that website again was knowledge Bureau.

David Christianson  38:39  

Yep, dot dot, www.knowledge bureau.com.

David Miller  38:46  

Okay, everybody go check it out. David, thank you very much.

David Christianson  38:49  

Thank you, David.